[aosd-discuss] "AOP considered harmful"

[Maximilian Stoerzer]

Hi Eric,

Eric Tanter wrote:
> But what about the fact that AOP breaks Dijkstra's requisite of a sound 
> mapping from variables to values based only on a coordinate system of 
> non-program values?
> Max, what were the reactions/conclusions you reached while presenting 
> the paper at EIWAS?
If I remember correctly nobody really attacked the observation that
advice has a notion like GOTO or rather COME FROM. But there is the
important difference that advice has a RETURN missing for GOTO.

The COME FROM similarity is that advice is not visible in the base code.
But this is leveraged through tool support (e.g. ajdt).

Additionally we observed that for classic OO dynamic binding the
coordinate system is also lost, as call targets are no longer statically
known (i.e. only a superset). However, for OO there are rules how to
soundly use inheritance, which are still missing/being discussed for AOP.

Most reflection approaches also suffer from similar problems, e.g. if
you write a program creating and executing new code.

To all EIWAS participants - please correct me if I am wrong and add
things I missed ;)

Regards,
	Max

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -- Eric
> 
> On Apr 25, 2005, at 10:28, Gregor Kiczales wrote:
> 
>> Its also interesting to note that the Burton analyst spoke
>> by phone and email to a number of people I know of (likely
>> he spoke to more of course). And asking around a lot I
>> haven't been able to find a single expert the Forrester
>> analyst consulted.
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: discuss-bounces at aosd.net
>>> [mailto:discuss-bounces at aosd.net] On Behalf Of Alexandre Vasseur
>>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:35 AM
>>> To: stoerzer at fmi.uni-passau.de
>>> Cc: discuss at aosd.net
>>> Subject: Re: [aosd-discuss] "AOP considered harmful"
>>>
>>> Max, thanks for clarifying that. I am wondering if the Forrester
>>> analyst contacted you to write his report (that I had the chance to
>>> read entirely - not just the abstract) and if you told him so ?
>>>
>>> No need to say that the Burton Group report published recently seems
>>> to give a contradictory echo to this one by the way.
>>> http://www.burtongroup.com/research_consulting/publicdoc.aspx?cid=679
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/25/05, Maximilian Stoerzer <stoerzer at fmi.uni-passau.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> as one of the authors of the referenced paper, just a short
>>>
>>> note: This
>>>
>>>> paper was written for a panel discussion, and indeed intended to be
>>>> provocative.
>>>>
>>>> However, I think that AOP as we see it now can result in
>>>
>>> reduced program
>>>
>>>> understandability, if used in the wrong way. Additionally AOP imho
>>>> strongly depends on tool support (thanks for ajdt, great
>>>
>>> tool in that
>>>
>>>> context!).
>>>>
>>>> Our intention in comparing advice and GOTO was to outline these
>>>> problems, as I think they have to be addressed to make AOP
>>>
>>> a long term
>>>
>>>> success story, especially when considering software
>>>
>>> maintenance - and in
>>>
>>>> no way AOP bashing, please don't get us wrong ;o)
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>      Max
>>>>
>>>> Eric Bodden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> To taday on
>>>>> http://slashdot.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>> - --
>>>>> Eric Bodden
>>>>> Chair I2 for Programming Languages and Program Analysis
>>>>> RWTH Aachen University
>>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>> Version: PGP 8.0.3
>>>>>
>>>>> iQA/AwUBQmud18wiFCm7RlWCEQIuqwCeKHRXfAlPVVvedQFNCvWbC7iotL4AoJEJ
>>>>> BKwiqmo2X8f3iqA/FBpRnYsK
>>>>> =0M0e
>>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Maximilian Stoerzer
>>>> Lehrstuhl Software Systeme - FMI - University of Passau
>>>> Tel: +49 851 509 3096, eMail: stoerzer at fmi.uni-passau.de
>>>>
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>>
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> 
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-- 
Maximilian Stoerzer
Lehrstuhl Software Systeme - FMI - University of Passau
Tel: +49 851 509 3096, eMail: stoerzer at fmi.uni-passau.de